66 replies to this topic

[Protection]

If for some reason you do not yet understand why Endo Steel is 100% superior to Ferro Fibrous, scroll down to the quote below for an explanation.


Which is the problem. Endo Steel is 100$ better than Ferro Fibrous.

It's boring and limits player choice, and makes Ferro Fibrous almost totally pointless except on Light mechs and Mediums with lots of extra critical space (and only because they already have Endo Steel).


So how do we make Ferro a potentially desirable choice for players? Here's the idea:

• Ferro Fibrous gives you 1.12 times as much armour per ton (this is exactly the same as it is now)
  
• as well, Ferro Fibrous now increases the maximum armour of the mech by 12% (the maximum armour in each section will be 12% higher)

This way, canon designs are not changed (they are slightly less optimized, but let's face it, almost no canon designs are well optimized at the moment), but players now have a real reason to choose between Endo Steel and Ferro Fibrous.

Endo Steel still offers better value - more extra tonnage to use on weapons and other things. Ferro Fibrous offers less tonnage savings, but allows you to push Mech Armour up an extra notch.

Now there is a real interesting choice about how to build your mech with a choice between Ferro Fibrous and Endo Steel.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

To understand why Endo Steel is better, read the following:

Quote

As it stands, Endo Steel is far better.



Before outfitting a mech with Endo Steel, Ferro Fibrous, or Double Heatsinks - be sure that you actually want to do it. It costs money to make the switch, and it costs more money to go back - so tinkering is for the rich.


Endo Steel over Ferro Fibrous 100% of the time. Never ever, ever, ever take Ferro Fibrous unless you already have Endo Steel. Never ever.

Simple Explanation: (Ferro Fibrous will save you anywhere from 0.5 tons to maybe 2.5 tons, Endo Steel will save you between 1 and 5 tons, and Ferro Fibrous will never save you more tonnage thanEndo Steel.)

Detailed Explanation: (Endo Steel halves the weight of your internal structure. Since Internal Structure weights 10% of your mech's weight, you get half of that back. That is, you get 5% of your mechs tonnage more to spend on weapons and armour and other goodies. A 20 ton mech gets 1 extra ton with Endo Steel, a 50 ton mechs gets 2.5 tons, a 100 ton mech gets 5 tons. Remember, this extra tonnage is tonnage you can use to pay for more regular armour. Ferro Fibrous armour gives you 12% more armor points per ton. It does not increase your maximum armour, it just discounts the price of the tonnage you pay for armour. Now, pretending that you are running close to the maximum armour on each mech, you are spending maybe 20% of that mech's weight on armour. Which means the 12% extra comes out of that 20. Which means, while Endo Steel is a flat 5% savings, Ferro Fibrous is 12% of 20% or a paltry 2.4% savings (assuming you absolutely maximize armour - it's even worse if you strip armour anywhere). A 20 ton mech will save 0.5 tons, a 50 ton mech will save 1.5 tons, a 100 ton mech will save 2.5 tons.)

Seriously, every time you build a mech with Ferro Fibrous but no Endo Steel, a kitten is punched in the face.


Rule of Thumb:


Light Mechs - both Endo Steel and Ferro Fibrous - you have the extra critical slots, use them
Medium Mechs - Endo Steel always, maybe Ferro Fibrous if you can fit it in (likely not with ballistic weaponry)
Heavy Mechs - Probably Endo Steel, probably not Ferro Fibrous - not enough Critical Space
Assault Mechs - Maybe Endo Steel, No to Ferro Fibrous - Critical Space is very hard to come by

[Rejarial Galatan]

I am tinkering with my Atlas, and currently, Standard Chassis, Double Heat Sinks and Ferro Armor. Working on a way to wedge in the endo frame <once I hit the $$ again to get the Endo> AND an XL360 engine. So far, things are working as intended, but, may need some mods in the long run to wedge it in, like cutting back on the 8 tons gauss ammo lol

[Barghest Whelp]

You're quite right. I believe the problem stems from the fact that there is no weight restriction on armour, nor a slot restriction.

To explain a bit more in detail:

A light mech should have a restriction of 1 ton armour per body part, as well as a one slot restriction. This means that FF would save weight, and standard would not have any advantages.

A larger mech could have a restriction of 2 tons, but 3 slots. Effectively this would mean that FF allows for a higher max armour a the cost of slots, where as the standard armour would save on slots at the cost of max armour and at more weight per ton.

I pulled those figures out of nowhere btw, but I'm simplythrowing those out there to illustrate a point.

Currently all the armour slots are dynamic,which is why we can fit a K2 with dual gauss. If the slots were not dynamic one would have to make bigger sacrifices in order to fit the same.

I believe it was implemented this way in order to simplify the fitting of mechs. Once the armour slots become static things get a lot more complicated. I personally would prefer if the slots were static, but hey, if things get too complicated the game isn't going to sell very well. I guess.

[Rejarial Galatan]

idk man, my atlas dropped a few tons when I made the FF switch from standard armor...

[Dmitri Valenov]

I support this idea. Mostly because you beat me to posting it. Ferro-Fibrous only gives you a meaningful reduction in weight if you have 8 tons of armor or more. In every instance more tonnage can be gained by selecting the Endo-Steel upgrade. It's virtually useless to light and medium mechs because they gain almost no tonnage and Heavies and Assaults are very limited on space.

[ZivyTerc]

The real solution would be to reduce crit slot requirement for FF armor to half (7 crits). Then it might be actually usefull.

[Pasha19]

ZivyTerc, on 20 November 2012 - 04:32 AM, said:

The real solution would be to reduce crit slot requirement for FF armor to half (7 crits). Then it might be actually usefull.

Interesting, but this solution gives even more advantages to light mechs. I think, after this we'll see virtually every light mech with both enchancements installed (FF and ES). There is another solution — increase the number of crit slots in heavys and assaults.

[Xenok]

Protection, on 20 November 2012 - 12:44 AM, said:

If for some reason you do not yet understand why Endo Steel is 100% superior to Ferro Fibrous, scroll down to the quote below for an explanation.


Which is the problem. Endo Steel is 100$ better than Ferro Fibrous.

It's boring and limits player choice, and makes Ferro Fibrous almost totally pointless except on Light mechs and Mediums with lots of extra critical space (and only because they already have Endo Steel).


So how do we make Ferro a potentially desirable choice for players? Here's the idea:

• Ferro Fibrous gives you 1.12 times as much armour per ton (this is exactly the same as it is now)
  
• as well, Ferro Fibrous now increases the maximum armour of the mech by 12% (the maximum armour in each section will be 12% higher)

This way, canon designs are not changed (they are slightly less optimized, but let's face it, almost no canon designs are well optimized at the moment), but players now have a real reason to choose between Endo Steel and Ferro Fibrous.



Endo Steel still offers better value - more extra tonnage to use on weapons and other things. Ferro Fibrous offers less tonnage savings, but allows you to push Mech Armour up an extra notch.

Now there is a real interesting choice about how to build your mech with a choice between Ferro Fibrous and Endo Steel.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

To understand why Endo Steel is better, read the following:

One additional option, FF offers half the benifit of Endo steel so make it take half the critical slots as well.

I saw one for increased critical slots in heavy and assult mechs, also an excelent way to improve things thought I think it does nothing to resolve the FF verses ES debate

Edited by Xenok, 20 November 2012 - 08:06 AM.

[xHeero]

Rejarial Galatan, on 20 November 2012 - 01:31 AM, said:

idk man, my atlas dropped a few tons when I made the FF switch from standard armor...

Endo steel would save you 5 tons at the cost of 14 critical slots. FF saved you less tonnage for the same amount of critical slots. Of course FF saved you a few tons, but endo steel would have saved you more for the same critical slot cost.

[Volthorne]

ZivyTerc, on 20 November 2012 - 04:32 AM, said:

The real solution would be to reduce crit slot requirement for FF armor to half (7 crits). Then it might be actually usefull.

Pasha19, on 20 November 2012 - 06:35 AM, said:

Interesting, but this solution gives even more advantages to light mechs. I think, after this we'll see virtually every light mech with both enchancements installed (FF and ES). There is another solution — increase the number of crit slots in heavys and assaults.

What the hell? We don't have access to bogeyman technology yet! (for those of you not in the know, the Clans get ES and FF at 7 crits apiece, but they're currently bogeymen to the IS)

[Twilight Fenrir]

As to the OP: Makes sense to me! Though, presumably, the reason the ferro would consume more crits is because it's bulkier... IE Aluminum parts have to be larger than steel parts at the same strength, but they still weigh less... So, being able to put more on doesn't really make sense, as it would start interfearing with geometry... but, these are real-world concerns, not in-game ones.

Volthorne, on 20 November 2012 - 08:27 AM, said:

What the hell? We don't have access to bogeyman technology yet! (for those of you not in the know, the Clans get ES and FF at 7 crits apiece, but they're currently bogeymen to the IS)

IIRC, didn't the IS not have Ferro, Endo, XL, OR double heatsinks at this point initially? I understand it was kind of retconned in to help in the tabletop games... but these are the things that made the clans advanced, was their dual heatsinks, lighter engines, better armor, lighter skelleton, and better computers. At least, according to the novels. I never played tabletop.

[Protection]

Rejarial Galatan, on 20 November 2012 - 01:31 AM, said:

idk man, my atlas dropped a few tons when I made the FF switch from standard armor...

[Fiest]

Sarna says ff is balanced by being cheaper, easier to repair, easier to upgrade/downgrade than endo. I agree with the op - it would be great if you could carry 12% more armour on the ff mechs - bit more leeway in custom armour balance on a mech

Edited by Fiest, 20 November 2012 - 09:52 AM.

[Protection]

Necromancer bump because it is still a good idea.

[BerryChunks]

Ferro-Fibrous is still a viable option for poor people who don't buy MC and get Cbill boost. Basically, it has it's place for the same reason it would have a place on TT: Price.

If they ever get around to figuring out that you should limit weapon selections so that people can only have a small mix of weapons at any given time (unless it's a variant like the laserback, which allows spam/boat), then many mechs will be able to squeeze both on. FF + Endo is better than XL once Engine Crits actually DO something.

It's all about balance.

Edited by BerryChunks, 08 January 2013 - 03:16 PM.

[Garth Erlam]

Keep up the ideas, guys

[deforce]

make it so it gives no weight savings, but gives the actual armor a slight bonus maybe 5%/10% or whatever is deemed balanced. so technically it is weight saving if you just lower your armor to get to the same value that your had originally. The armor bonus would definitely help in the future when clan weapons come out and do a LOT more damage than what IS weapons currently do.

[KitK]

I don't normally condone such changes from cannon, but my stuffed up head must be making me more amiable this morning...

You are right Innersphere FF armor takes up too much space and too much C-Bill + Maintenance when it comes back for too little gain to be put into general use.

Your suggestion would allow a Flea to carry about 0.5 tons more armor and an Atlas to carry a about 2 tons more armor (rounding down). Each would have to remove something else to keep the mech from going overweight. And the increases would have to be spread across 8 sections. So, this would probably balance OK.

[Zyllos]

Suggestion already asked in Ask the Devs and a thread already dedicated to it: Ferro-Fiberous Revisionsed

Garth Erlam, on 02 January 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

Q: Has there been any thoughts by you guys to help boost FF, to make it an upgrade, instead of a next step upgrade to ES? [Zyllos]
A: Yes we have, and they are ongoing. We have a few ideas, though a nice first step was removing the repair cost fromt he game [Garth]

[Sgt Misfire]

personally I'd go for smaller changes but more of them, making it a more generalized upgrade,

Drop the Critical required by 3/4
Drop the Armour points / Tonne to around 8 / 10
leave Armour Tonnage same as Standard, giving you a max Armour bonus of around 8 / 10 percent

Leave all costs the same